Speaking against further use of embryos for stem cell research, Fearless Leader announced he would not allow any federal monies used for the taking of human life. We will be dismantling our military tommorow.
Two Gates the silent House of Sleep adorn; Of polish'd Iv'ry this, that of transparent Horn:
True Visions thro' transparent Horn arise; Thro' polish'd Iv'ry pass deluding Lies.
Shrub made it official
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 monkeywrencher |
Shrub made it official |
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Posts: 259 (05/24/05 11:05:56) Friend to all dogs |
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DeathsBestFriend |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 556 (05/24/05 11:36:33) Sea of Endless Fire |
Yes, Bush, like the Pope, shares a culture of life... forgetting the fact that the Pope was anti-abortion, anti-war, and anti-capitol punishment while Bush and Co got mad because the Supreme Court wouldnt let them execute minors anymore. They still get to execute retarded people though!
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Crazy Dave Number 23 |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 7512 (05/24/05 12:01:48) ILOVEIT!!! |
Conservatives make me sick.
"It's okay to bomb children or starve them to death so long as they're not our own." Which I find to be one of the ultimate truths, and therefore, the statement I always apply to hypocrites. |
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Marte666 |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 2623 (05/24/05 12:14:15) Proud to be Dutch |
I hate people.
Marte
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Astral Heroin |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 370 (05/24/05 12:36:06) a.k.a noc |
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Tahiri 1977 |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 1117 (05/24/05 13:14:30) Sea of Endless Fire |
Yes, Bush said he wouldn't be spending government money on it. That doesn't mean private organizations can't continue stem cell research on their own funds.
Quote: Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you insinuating that it's ok to take human life? An embryo is still a human being in the developing stages. Quote: If a minor, lets say a 17-year-old, murders a group of people, shouldn't he or she be tried as an adult? If an adult did that they would most likely receive the death penalty. So why not a minor who acts like an adult? As for your second comment about retarded people, are you making a reference to Terri Schiavo? If I remember correctly, Bush was against killing Terri. It was the Courts that made that decision. Quote: Would you be able to please give me a definition of conservatism?  |
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Crazy Dave Number 23 |
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Posts: 7512 (05/24/05 13:24:29) ILOVEIT!!! |
MW's topic was sarcastic, have a look over it again.
Edit: And I'm not going to expand on my conservative rhetoric unless I/ someone else moves this to Vox. Or you could PM if you wish to know my bias. |
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Tahiri 1977 |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 1117 (05/24/05 13:29:33) Sea of Endless Fire |
My bad.
You might as well move it to Vox. |
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monkeywrencher |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 259 (05/24/05 18:54:27) Friend to all dogs |
There is nothing inherently wrong with conservatism, when practised. The Republican Party is the party of Lincoln, who preserved our union and amancipated the slaves and T. R. Roosevelt, who was a major trust buster, reformed the N.Y. police into the model of contemporary departments and started our park system to preserve natural wonders. The party has been hijacked by religous fanatics no better than the Wahabi sect of Saudi Arabia. But if you listen to George Buchanan, a real Nixonian right winger, It may very well self destruct because of the war, immigration ( illegal) and the loss of jobs to Red China. Stem cell research, abortion rights, gay marriage are all important issues. But they are basically moral and not legal issues that the government has no business getting so deeply involved in. It's idiotic to legislate steroid testing in professional sports while our children are dying, not in an abortion clinic, but from poverty,disease, abuse and ultimately at 18 from a roadside bomb in a Iraqi taxicab.
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Crazy Dave Number 23 |
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Posts: 7512 (05/25/05 00:14:10) ILOVEIT!!! |
Yeah it isn't conservatism in general I have issues with, it's the particular bunch of conservatives who are running my country and their supporters who only see red white and blue.
The Flordia summer was getting to me and I didn't clarify as well as I should have. |
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monkeywrencher |
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Posts: 259 (05/25/05 11:02:26) Friend to all dogs |
I usually don't mention spelling or grammatical errors. My own gaffs and failure to edit my own posts bad enough. But, you mispelled ruin as run.
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Crazy Dave Number 23 |
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Posts: 7512 (05/25/05 13:57:00) ILOVEIT!!! |
Haha, thank you for catching that. Although "running" works with the context, "ruining" would be a far more accurate depiction of not only what they are doing, but also of the attitude I wanted to convey. Thanks.
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GoldenRoya |
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Posts: 1071 (05/25/05 20:09:18) Dragons Rage Within |
Quote: And yet, laws are based in morality. If human life has no value, then it wouldn't be against the law to murder someone. If a person's possessions weren't, in a sense, sacred, then it would be no crime to take them. Laws create and are created to uphold moral ideals. The challenge is to determine WHICH moral ideals to uphold. For example, the sanctity of human life. Abortions are wrong to some people, but to others it's alright. Stem cell research destroys a human embryo, reducing human life to that of lab rats, a thing which the world condemned about Nazi Germany. But the embryos (at least the discarded ones from fertility clinics) would be destroyed anyway, so why not use them to save the quality/quantity of life for other, already living humans? It's not an abortion, it's recyling the trash. At least from one point of view. That's all a lot of this legal/moral vascillating is, really. Trying to decide whose point of view is most valid. We knew Bush was a conservative Christian when we elected him, and that it would affect his policies. Personally, I am for ESC research, provided the means for obtaining the embryos is regulated (from fertility clinics, etc). I am the only one in my family that liberal.  The rest of them all think any and all ESC research should be banned.And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming Or the moment of truth in your lies When everything feels like the movies Yeah, you bleed just to know you're alive ~ Iris, Goo Goo Dolls |
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Zurtok |
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Posts: 1821 (05/26/05 00:51:40) The Doctor |
Quote: I didn't elect him. He was elected without my consent  That being said, the goverment should not have the power to legislate morality. Perhaps I'm looking for too much of a night watch state, but I do not feel that what I want to do with my body, mind, spirit, or whatever other parts I have, I should have the right to do insofar as it does not hurt other people. Quote: I don't agree. Laws should be based around the idea (call it a morality if you want) of whether or not your action is harmful to another person. That is the only law that makes any sense. Laws are there to uphold the goverment, not morality. An absence of laws (which = an abscence of goverment) is Anarchy. The goverment is an insitution of law. And, therefore no law should be passed that does not affect the goverment's running of it's self. Of course, there is some arguement as to wether the goverment actually runs...but thats a different topic. Quote: And thats exactally the problem. They are points of veiw, none of them is fixxed. They all shift and change. How vain it is to sit down to write when you have not stood up to live. -Henry David Thoreau Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Duke396 |
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Posts: 3857 (05/27/05 19:11:03) Crianca's Plaything |
[quote]But the embryos (at least the discarded ones from fertility clinics) would be destroyed anyway, so why not use them to save the quality/quantity of life for other, already living humans? It's not an abortion, it's recyling the trash. At least from one point of view.[/quote]
I was kindof thinking the same thing. I'm not for abortion but it would make sense that if someone is going to have one anyway (it's not like I can stop them) why not use that embryo to conduct research and help others who do want their babies? At least then it benefits someone other than the one having the abortion. |
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monkeywrencher |
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Posts: 259 (05/28/05 17:43:34) Friend to all dogs |
Monarchy= rule by one Oligarchy= rule by a few Anarchy= rule by none. Is this "the land of the free, and home of the brave" or isn't it? ' Government' and all it's minions in all their petty offices should respect and assume the fact I can be responsible for my own acts, and not infer beforehand that I cannot and must be regulated. I'm a dangerous man, i believe in individual liberty.
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Mister Neil |
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Posts: 11 (10/08/05 19:28:47) A Shooting Star |
Quote:I do agree that as long as the aborted fetuses exist, they should be used for research. But I think the problem with that is that a lot of conservatives still see that as an advocation of abortion, which they see as murder. The problem being that conservatives think that newly conceived zygotes are people. It's an education problem. I'm not a champion for abortion by any means, but I am pro-choice in the sense that the "life" being aborted is not an individual. The zygote is not a human being with rights, because having rights assumes that one has personage, whereas a zygote doesn't even have a nervous system and thus no brain. They zygote is what exists before the fetus developes a consciousness and becomes an individual. Before that time, the individual doesn't exist, and thus you cannot murder a person who doesn't exist. Notice that I am not saying that a zygote is not human life. Certainly it is, but I think the problem is that people commonly equivocate human life with human personage, which is an intellectual fallacy. Being alive and being a person are two different things. Again, I don't applaud abortion. I think it's a tough decision for any woman or couple to make. But I don't see the moral problem with it. Nobody is being murdered in an abortion. And with that said, I think it's an incredible waste to ignore the potential of aborted fetuses for stem cell research. It just annoys the hell out of me. It's hypocritical if you think about it. There's a guy on another forum I go to who has cystic fibrosis (his website), and he's been denied by the government for coverage of the double lung transplant that could actually save his life. Why? Because it's too risky. So basically, this person whose life could be saved is going to be allowed to die, yet our beloved president writes special legislation for Terri Schiavo, who didn't even have cognitive function at that stage. Terri Schiavo was braindead. And let's not forget the war. Capital punishment. Bush's actions are totally ass-backwards. He spends all his time trying to save life that has no personage, yet he's alarmingly indifferent to real people in this world who are dying. |
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Crazy Dave Number 23 |
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Posts: 7512 (10/08/05 23:01:11) ILOVEIT!!! |
And the heartbreaking point is that so many people agree with his views. Or rather, the president is their puppet. But how can one be shown another perspective, who doesn't, can't, or won't allow that perspective? Will the human race forever be doomed to mistrust, self-centeredness, closed minds? Pardon my OT rant. I need to go to sleep and stop considering these things so much.
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Scorpionac |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 748 (10/10/05 12:16:57) TML |
Well. That yolk will become a "person", won't it? Just because it can't talk or think and it doesn't have a gender and you can't hold it or give it an appropriate name or anything doesn't mean that it isn't alive. It isn't a worthless life, it can't help being inferior. It's just an embryo.
I really don't like your viewpoint, Mister Neil. (That's putting it nicely.) |
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Mister Neil |
Re: Shrub made it official | ||
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Posts: 11 (10/10/05 16:43:35) A Shooting Star |
Quote:Not necessarily. Most conceptions naturally abort without the mother's knowledge anyway. Should we agonize over the billions and billions of times this happens ever year? Should we arrest every sexually active woman for involuntary manslaughter? Should we build zygote rescue clinics for these tragic rejections? Of course not! That'd be silly. We understand that these zygotes are not people. Quote:Of course it's alive. I specifically stated that it was. You can't use life in place of personhood. That's the fallacy of equivocation. And I've said nothing about inferiority. That's a misquote. A strawman, if you will. It has nothing to do with superiority. It has to do with personhood, which zygotes do not have, and thus they have no rights. Having rights assumesthat one has personage. Quote:I'm speaking specifically about zygotes, and zygotes are not people. Quote:I'm sorry you feel that way. I spend many hours doing research on topics such as this, and I can find no reason to be alarmed by the death of a zygote. I am indifferent to death which does not involve the termination of an individual. I hope people can understand the difference between something being human life and someone being a person, and why it's silly to worry about the death of a someone who never existed in the first place. |
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Scorpionac |
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Posts: 748 (10/10/05 18:32:31) TML |
Quote: OK, you have me confused now. Don't most women who become pregnant have their baby naturally, if there is no interference? Doesn't only one egg cell or whatever join with a sperm cell? I think I'm misunderstanding your statement. Quote: I know that's a misquote. I was trying to simplify your attitude towards abortion so I could think about it easier, but I don't see how it changed the light of how I saw it. My point remains that if the zygote had kept living, it would have become a person. With personage, even. I'm not trying to be nasty, but since you have spent some time on this subject, and I'm not doubting whether or not you have an answer to this, but how does one abort a zygote? I know how they abort embryos or fetuses or whatever. I realize that I really don't know much about this, but hopefully you can help me expand my viewpoint. Thanks for answering my questions. |
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